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Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 15 hours ago Stingraysstudios said:
OK, i managed to burn the street up around my home with the A4, so allow me to address your comments;

So to conclude, that is what
Local Motors is, and will be for the years to come. I have presented you with how we work, and how our process works. We are always open to new ideas, but so far this has worked. The Rally Fighter is a great success so far, and it is still only the beginning. We are always striving to improve our process, our tools, and our techniques.

^ cool, all good there.

But implementing a system like the one you have suggested simply does not make sense from my personal standpoint considering how
Local Motors works. I don't see how it is sustainable, and I don't see why we are "obligated" to pay anyone who can pick up a pencil and piece of paper, scan their sketch, and post it on our site.

^ Not cool...see you DO have an obligation on an ethical base to "inspire" anyone who can sketch a design on paper....as THAT is exactly the development base for your future designs. MOST of the 4000 plus members here DO NOT participate in each competition....THAT is the same on EVERY such website, only a small % of active members Really "step up" and provide a reliable contribution, "par for the course".
Now to get more people involved takes "Motivation" & Fast, responsive interaction. Trust Me I have understood EXACTLY what it takes now to drive a "community" to participate in a Design Process...& you end up with a handful of Very Talented & dedicated persons who are doing this because as you pointed out...THEY LOVE IT. There are your Perfect Team Leaders !!! .....Now here we go to address the "problems" ;
:
Step 5: IF the interested party is a winner, then he/she receives generous compensation from Local Motors, a chance to have their design turned into reality, and the promotion from
Local Motors. Local Motors buys the rights to use this design at that point.

^ OK, sounds good but...what "market value" are you setting your "compensation " on ???...If indeed a model Could Sell 2000 units over 10 years @ 30K each....uh,...that IS $60M bucks bro !!!...and your paying the DESIGNER what...10 grand !!!...NO. not equitable at all for an "open source" process to COMPETE in the Real World, you have to offer More than a "job" would net for the designer, you need to build a commitment & relationship with that Design Team which delivered for LM !!

Step 6:
Local Motors design and engineering teams begin work on transforming winning designs into build-able, realistic products ( whether it be car, light bar, side vent etc..)

What !!!....Why ? Not without the Original Design Team "embedded" into the engineering process, to work as a community you need to stay on track with your designers to insure the BEST solution & mauntain the INTENT of the Original Design.

Step 7:
Local Motors incorporates winning design into project plan, and begins work to make winning design real. This usually requires and entire re-design by the engineers and designers as most designs that are winners come in 2d rendering formats. Changing that into realistic 3D models and then rapid prototypes requires a lot of effort.

^ YES & that is EXACTLY WHY THE ORIGINAL DESIGN TEAM NEEDS TO BE "ONLINE" DURING THIS ENTIRE PROCESS !!!,,,& that is WHY you will pay them from the established Budget...to refine & define the Final Deliverable product. WHY would you "hand off" a winning design to be "engineered" into something other or even maybe less than what the combined contributions of the Designers created ???...your cutting off your nose in spite of your face in doing that AND you just Destroyed the ENTIRE "community process of design development as well, by cutting the designer OUT of the equation.

Step 8.
Local Motors shows build process of winning designs, and shares information on how the parts will be manufactured and used with the community. Integrates feedback into the process.

^ OK that kinda offers a continuing contribution by the open source design criteria, but...you need specific results at this time in your development, and thet means you require Professional Work, in that it MUST be to your manufacture Specs....that IS a "work for hire" & may even offer patentable designs from the results !!!..so, HOW are you dealing with That ?...If I design a "body kit" for the RF, and sell it as MY product in the aftermarket, I own the DESIGN, but...it is based upon YOUR (LM) product, OK, so NOW do we have a 2 way "licensing agreement"...as that seems to me to be a requirement in order to be equitable to both parties,

Step 9.
Local Motors makes actual product and works closely with original designer to make sure product is as close to the design that the original designer wanted.

Nice Words....Not actually realistic though as in most cases some degree of  "Modification" is required & the solutions in terms of materials & or components utilized do effect the Final Result, design wise. and ... Therefore again LM is responsible to compensate the Designers for the entire process of  "working closely"  with LM to insure the design is what was "wanted"...!!!


Step 10:
Local Motors begins to sell product, with signature badges of the various community designers who worked on varying aspects of the design. The Rally fighter for example will have Sangho's badge on the exterior, Mihai's badges on the interior, and Filski's badges on the light bar.

Stroke, stroke what a Joke...Pay Me. lol...yes it is very nice that your including a "deign badge" here & there, but WHAT are you REALLY doing to further the future of YOUR DESIGNERS ???...a percentage of the Gross / Net return over the life of the product IS pretty much a EXPECTED part of any Design Fee. How can you NOT justify or even pretend that this is NOT SUSTAINABLE !!!!...when LM income steam from 2000 models @ 30K each is SIXTY MILLION BUCKS !!! ...
Oh Please, ...Get Real & Pay the Man his Due !!!. TRY to sell that deal to Pininfarina or Italdesign, and cover your ass as they kick you out the door !!!






Comment Type Dawn 18 hours ago Sciocont said:
Nice.











Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago idesigncars said:
The way Local Motors works is really quite simple, but I'll lay it out here very clearly so that I can at least answer my question regarding "what we are talking about".


Step one: Interested party becomes
Local Motors Community member ( Designer, engineer, enthusiast, buyer, other)

Step Two: Interested party submits work ( Checkup, competiton, design process, portfolio, Glossary entry, Forum entry) It should be noted that the creator of any content posted on our site retains the rights to their content, and
Local Motors will not use it without the express consent of that party.

Step 3: Party receives feedback, and has time to improve design.

Step 4: If a competition, Party has entry voted on, and can vote on other entries.

Step 5: IF the interested party is a winner, then he/she receives generous compensation from Local Motors, a chance to have their design turned into reality, and the promotion from
Local Motors. Local Motors buys the rights to use this design at that point.

Step 6:
Local Motors design and engineering teams begin work on transforming winning designs into build-able, realistic products ( whether it be car, light bar, side vent etc..)

Step 7:
Local Motors incorporates winning design into project plan, and begins work to make winning design real. This usually requires and entire re-design by the engineers and designers as most designs that are winners come in 2d rendering formats. Changing that into realistic 3D models and then rapid prototypes requires a lot of effort.

Step 8.
Local Motors shows build process of winning designs, and shares information on how the parts will be manufactured and used with the community. Integrates feedback into the process.

Step 9.
Local Motors makes actual product and works closely with original designer to make sure product is as close to the design that the original designer wanted.

Step 10:
Local Motors begins to sell product, with signature badges of the various community designers who worked on varying aspects of the design. The Rally fighter for example will have Sangho's badge on the exterior, Mihai's badges on the interior, and Filski's badges on the light bar.

That is how we work. Anyone is welcome to come, have fun, and try their hand at designing something that we could turn into a reality. If they win, and we decide to use their design, then we compensate them. If they don't win, but need money, they are more than welcome to take their designs to any other company and try to sell it to them. Or, they could begin manufacturing their designs and sell it to
Local Motors vehicle owners.

One thing you might be interested in Stingray is the new Pro-Shop that will soon be part of the
Rally Fighter Experience. Here anyone can download the open source data of the Rally Fighter, ( or in the future any other vehicle LM builds) and can design and build custom accessories for LM Vehicles. Then they can sell these parts/ accessories right through the Local Motors Pro Shop-- i.e. Local Motors will help these independent designers/ engineers/ builders sell their products right through our site!

So if you have ideas for accessories for LM vehicles Stingray, this is a great option for you.  I feel that that is a fair, ethical way to work within the the
Local Motors community, create products, and earn some cash. I mean after-all, these accessory suppliers will build the accessories, and will be able to make money off of them. And they could even tap the LM community in the development process.

You see, the fact is, is that our design community is made up of over 4500 passionate individuals who care and love design for what it is. They come here to learn, they come here to show, they come here to inspire, they come here to be inspired, and they come here to collaborate. They come here on their own, when they want. They can work as much as they want, and as little as they want. We provide them with an extensive platform and set of tools to collaborate, see work, share their work, and participate in the creative process. No community member is required to do anything, other than every once in a while meet the requirements for a competition entry if they choose to enter. There is nothing un-ethical about this model. The fact that the designers keep the rights to their work that they voluntarily submit to our website is almost unheard of on the internet. YOu know that facebook has a clause to be able to use any photo you submit to their website?! We don't do that. And if we like something, we pay for it. We are fully transparent, and completely open.

So to conclude, that is what
Local Motors is, and will be for the years to come. I have presented you with how we work, and how our process works. We are always open to new ideas, but so far this has worked. The Rally Fighter is a great success so far, and it is still only the beginning. We are always striving to improve our process, our tools, and our techniques. But implementing a system like the one you have suggested simply does not make sense from my personal standpoint considering how Local Motors works. I don't see how it is sustainable, and I don't see why we are "obligated" to pay anyone who can pick up a pencil and piece of paper, scan their sketch, and post it on our site.

The Rally FIghter is a niche vehicle. There are those who will dislike it and say "it doesn't drive like my Audi".... and that is fine. That is why there is Audi. So they can go buy an Audi instead of a Rally FIghter.

Local Motors is similar. there will be people who come here and say "they are not paying the community members, they are not being fair etc..." and if that is how they feel, that is OK. There are plenty of other sites on the net where they can go make money (e-bay, second life, online gambling...) and they can go there instead.

I appreciate your thoughts and sharing them with us stingray. I hope this helps you understand our process and how we work a little better.

Like Danyael said, my opinions and thoughts here are mine, with a deep understanding and love for how
Local Motors works.  

Have a nice weekend.

Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago idesigncars said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and potentially make myself look like a fool here, but I have one really big question here?

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE? ok, maybe two questions... What is all the hoopla about?

I mean, seriously, this reminds me of Allen Iverson being criticized over missing one practice: The media went nuts because he failed to show up for one practice, and during the press conference, that is all the media wanted to talk about. Video is below.

My point is, I feel like this conversation is going around in circles, and is now on the cusp of turning into something other than a productive, informative conversation about the ethics and outcome of design collaboration.  This conversation had been left alone since last November. Why it is being brought up again after such a long period of down time, I am not sure.....

Ari's recent response was very to the point and accurate.

Stingray, we are doing, in a way, what you suggest. Both Aurel and Myself were hired from the community. Both of us worked really hard to get here. Both of us were active members on the website, prior to even knowing we had a chance to work for
Local Motors. When I made the packaging tutorial, photoshop file, and 3D model for the San Francisco competition, I did that because I was planning on participating in the competition and when I figured out that the engineering requirements clashed, I wanted to share my finding to help make the competition successful and fun for everyone. I spent 6 hours putting all of that together on a Saturday morning! I got up at 4 am to do it so that I could get it to the LM community before noon! And the thought of compensation never even crossed my mind. Because doing that, is what I love.

I logged on every day because
Local Motors unites designers from almost 140 countries, and is an amazing place to come for inspiration, share your own work, get feedback, discuss design with others, and have a great time. I never thought about coming here for money. I never even think that every time I post my work I should be paid for it. Maybe it's because I value experience, feedback, knowledge and relationships more than I value money. Maybe it's because I value the open structure of Local Motors more than money. And maybe it's because I would rather see something I helped create become real than get paid for just another job.

There are thousands of communities on the internet. Open collaboration is the wave of the future, it is the next thing. Teams are now global, and teams are now made up of multi-faceted individuals. IF you go onto VWvortex for example, there are tons of mechanics and body-shop workers giving people advice on how to fix their car.... FOR FREE! If you go onto deviant art, there are tons of artists sharing their artwork, some that is even downloadable and can be used under creative commons licensees.

What you are suggesting is a completely different structure, a completely different company, and a completely different way of working.

Everything posted on
Local Motors is voluntary-- meaning that everytime you post something, you are doing it knowing full well your rights and what it means to post your work to our website. But the work is still yours, and we will protect it if we feel that someone else is ripping you off.

Everytime
Local Motors uses a design from a competition winner, or in the case with Sangho, for a car, Local Motors pays these designers an extremely generous amount of money. And we go beyond that-- we give them winners status on our website, and we promote their work, and themselves. We Flew Sangho to Boston last summer for several interviews.

Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago R/Evo said:
Speaking of ethics, what if anything happened to the member that was caught cheating during the last competition? Also I was hoping someone from the LM staff was going to posts any of comments that appeared to be agreed upon by the majority of the participants from the last LM Chat.

On the design competitions and member participation I'm seeing a similar trend that happened to another website I belong to. That group membership was selected by questionnaire review first, and was limited to 500 USA members. But over the course of a year and a half, they went through about 750 members, as only about 50 members were consistently active. Why the lack of participation? First it was easy to sign up, but to be a real 'shaker & mover' that they claimed to be, proved for many to be a bit of an exaggeration. Second, they quickly lost interest and / or commitment by lack of success (e.g. high scores or winning in LM comps) or get encouragement or realize the benefits of continued participation.

Though LM now has several thousand members, only 60-120 entries are submitted per competition. (That's  like 2 - 3 % of the total membership!) It would also be safe to say only about 30 - 40 % are from members who joined a year ago  and 60 - 70 % are members who just joined, or in the last 6 months.

Also please note who are regularly submitting posts to the LM website. Just a few passionate members from a year ago, the majority are also new. Thus if it wasn't for the constant influx of new members it would appear that this design collaboration might not be successful as it appears to be ... and paying for entries may also not be a solution.












Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago Stingraysstudios said:
Please answer these questions:

- How many designers (and thus competitions) could realistically be employed every year?

- How much would LM have to pay each designer for 'entering' a competition?

- How much for winning?

- Given that we only do a run of 2000 cars of each design, how much does the competition prizes add to the price of each car?

- What exactly will the winner do to earn that year of salary? (which is the minimum you proposed)

- If the winner earns their salary by designing more than one car, how does that affect the number of competitions we can run, and the number of other people that get a chance at having their dream become real?

Answer : Let's Do the math...2000 cars sold @ $30,000 each equals a SIXTY MILLION DOLLAR REVENUE STREAM ($ 60,000,000.00)...OK ? Now, let us take 50% of that away for "Hard Costs" to manufacture, then another 50% od that for "operational costs"...that leaves $ 15M bucks.

OK, so that is close to a net / gross income, but let's take another $5M out for advertising, stock dividends, & other related expenses...so now we have $10M to work with as a bottom line Gross / Net income to LM on the 2000 cars sold.

So tell me why we ( as LM ) can't then afford to PAY THE DESIGNERS ?

Here is the strategy that WORKS....you configure various Design Teams under those of the community who are "professional quality" designers, and can be counted on to deliver on time & on spec a specific design brief as set forth by LM corporate staff.

Each of the design teams are granted a budget, to develop & execute a concept design for the purposed "model", then as each member of the team is aquired, under the guidance & accptance of the team leader, they are Paid from the budget for thier "contributions"...now this can be any form of effort from a simple "IDEA" to a full blown render, it matters not as each team membert is paid a fee for thier participation.

The winning team, whose design is accepted by the LM corporate managers, then is paid an additional % of the Net / Gross earnings, say 10%...That in ourn scenario here would be ONE MILLION DOLLARS !!!
 
This in turn would enable LM to stage multiple competitions for different specific models, relying upon the "open source" community to develop & submit concepts for evaluation & acceptance,leading to production and sales of a new LM product.


I think what you need to realize is that LM is not a viable 'employment' opportunity for designers and never was intended to be. But as I have said many times, we offer the one thing that the big companies can not.
A chance at your dream being made real.


Answer : BS, ALL of the Big Auto companies "hire" on contract Independent designer to create & develop specific models for thier lineup. the HHR, PT, Viper, Camaro, Volt, Shelby Mustang, ....even to the point where a single designer may just do a front or rear "clip" or a interior or ...etc & THAT is a real "job"...not a "full time employment" but an independent contractor agreement.

If we go the route of hiring developers long term, then we need to make more money of each car, make more cars, and most importantly - make the cars appeal to a wider audience so we can sell more to afford to pay for the year 's salary for the designer.


Answer : No, because then LM would just be another Toyota, coping the designs of established Auto Companies to make "appliance cars" for people who could care less about what they drive. LM is exactly the opposite of that, in what makes LM products "stand out " is the uniqueness of the DESIGN....therefore the DESIGN IS THE MAIN SELLING ELEMENT IN ALL LM PRODUCTS !!!

This results in that we become one just another big car maker, with soulless mass appeal designs and no one get's their dream car made anymore.
Local Motors needs a lot of fresh designs, different every time, for a small, local,  audience. This does not mesh well with few developers employed at high salaries over long contracts.We end up with fewer designers doing more designs, and the cars start to resemble the designer's style.We end up with higher need to make money off each design and lose that  unique riskiness we can afford with community designs. We start to need safe, stable designs that most people will buy.

Answer : NO, people do NOT knowmexactly what they "want", as it is up to the Designer to create an expression of the cultural time & hit the nailon the head with a kick ass design. Look at the Dodge Charger & Chrysler 300, now in concept it is just a 4 door sedan, BUT...somehow the DESIGNERS found a "market" for the aggressive & stylish models, and they have sold Very welll for the company as a result, even though the Design is different & went against the "trend of the day".

So please answer my questions above, and show me a viable business plan that would:
- have a large number of competitions each year
- produce unique designs
- give as many people as possible the chance to have their dream made real
- hand over sacks of cash to designers
- Not bankrupt LM after 3 or 4 competitions
- Not result in LM having more designers than all other staff on the payroll

Answer :I just did that. Noe the real question is dose LM acdept the "responsibility" as a Industry Leader of Open source Design to establish a realistic & viable compensation relationship with the design community here @ the LM website ?


i.e.
LM has already run ( many) competitions.So by your reasoning we should now have' full time designers working at LM. Given that our staff count is around 10, we would have a ratio of 2 to 1 designers to other staff. Our salary costs, by far the biggest expense of a business, would be 3x their current level. How is that in any way sustainable?


Answer : I think that it obvious that indeed not only is it "sustainable" to follow the directionI have outlined here but also imperative that LM dose in fact do something along these direct lines to establish Industry standards for Open Source designs & their contributing artists.

Think about it....A dream is just a dream unless you have the means to make it real...real as it can be. otherwise like me you can just build one or two "custom concepts" at a time & still maje as much as what I have outlined here for you. There is the "twist"...Hoe is LM going to attract real Professional Designers who by thier expertise can assist & inspire the Jr members of the community & "hire" them on to a design tean for the real world learning experience...& a paycheck as well. The promise of a Big Payoff if indeed your design team wins & the model is produced, while you will be required to work through ALL the steps to maintain integruity of the Original design, coordinating with engineering struvcture, and the various components, as well as marketing & option packages once the model is onn the market...but that is the reason for a "team" so that ALL of this Can Be handled & working with the LM corporate staff deliver a unoque & desireable product, one that has a DIRECT BENEFIT to ALL the particpating & contributing memebers of the "open Source" community here @ LM.
















Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago Danayel said:
I got your point. But that doesn't make it realistic or viable.

What LM is doing is doable, and we are doing it.

You have yet to provide a realistic alternative.

Please answer these questions:

- How many designers (and thus competitions) could realistically be employed every year?

- How much would LM have to pay each designer for 'entering' a competition?

- How much for winning?

- Given that we only do a run of 2000 cars of each design, how much does the competition prizes add to the price of each car?

- What exactly will the winner do to earn that year of salary? (which is the minimum you proposed)

- If the winner earns their salary by designing more than one car, how does that affect the number of competitions we can run, and the number of other people that get a chance at having their dream become real?



I think what you need to realize is that LM is not a viable 'employment' opportunity for designers and never was intended to be.

But as I have said many times, we offer the one thing that the big companies can not.

A chance at your dream being made real.

If we go the route of hiring developers long term, then we need to make more money of each car, make more cars, and most importantly - make the cars appeal to a wider audience so we can sell more to afford to pay for the year 's salary for the designer.

This results in that we become one just another big car maker, with soulless mass appeal designs and no one get's their dream car made anymore.

Local Motors needs a lot of fresh designs, different every time, for a small, local,  audience. This does not mesh well with few developers employed at high salaries over long contracts.

We end up with fewer designers doing more designs, and the cars start to resemble the designer's style.

We end up with higher need to make money off each design and lose that  unique riskiness we can afford with community designs. We start to need safe, stable designs that most people will buy.

So please answer my questions above, and show me a viable business plan that would:

- have a large number of competitions each year
- produce unique designs
- give as many people as possible the chance to have their dream made real

- hand over sacks of cash to designers
- Not bankrupt LM after 3 or 4 competitions
- Not result in LM having more designers than all other staff on the payroll

i.e.
LM has already run' competitions.

So by your reasoning we should now have' full time designers working at LM.

Given that our staff count is around 10, we would have a ratio of 2 to 1 designers to other staff. Our salary costs, by far the biggest expense of a business, would be 3x their current level.

How is that in any way sustainable?

The other alternative would be to have only 1-2 comps a year to keep designer numbers to a "sustainable" level.

How boring would LM be with only 1 comp a year? Would anyone even hang around?

I repeat what I said above. LM is not a viable employment alternative at a "professional level" for large numbers of designers. It was never intended to be, and doubt ever will be.

Please stop trying to make it into what it isn't.

LM is already an amazing result.

Regarding your second post:

That is great that works for you. I am glad you have somewhere that does what you want.

But that is not LM. If that job is so great, then I wish you luck with it.

Maybe you will have better luck convincing that client to give you complete creative freedom with the design, then give away the finished design when it is finished, and then hire another' teams for a year to make more creatively free designs for him to give away. (which is what you are asking LM to do)


p.s. I did a lot of saying "LM is and isn't XYZ. Ultimately it is up to Jay to say what LM is, not me, this is purely my impression from how it is presented and how we discuss it. Jay or Ari may step in at any point and tell me I am a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic, so take this with a grain of flexibility.




Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago Danayel said:
Then just stop submitting if you don't like it.

Please.

Because what you are proposing is completely unsustainable.

What we have now is entirely voluntary, and completely open, no one is being deceived or misled.

If there is a better deal elsewhere go take it. I would.

If you aren't happy then you should definitely go somewhere where you will get paid the way you want.

Now, please keep in mind that LM takes the winning designs, turns them into a build-able set of technical specs and then releases those technical specs as an *open source* document to the community.

We give back more than 200% of what is given us, and on top of that we pay the winners.

The community keeps the designs submitted in their entirety. LM keeps nothing locked up.

You can even take the LM tech specs and build them yourself and get your very own
Rally Fighter without paying LM a cent.

We don't make our money off the designs. We make our money off building cars.  We could do it with or without community designs.

We chose to do it via community designs to give the widest variety of people a chance to get their design made real. Instead of just hiring a few designers GM let go and having them design everything, then copyrighting those designs so only we could make them.

If you want to get technical, what the competitions are for are more to decide who is going to get their design made into a build-able specification, than "who is going to provide big bad LM with their next cash cow mwahahaha"

If you don't want your design made into a build-able, open source specification and don't want some cash to go with it. That's fine. Nobody is forcing you to.  Just take your designs to Hyandai and be done with it.

We are not GM. We are not Ford, We are not Toyota. We are not Hyandai.

We are
Local Motors.

If you don't like Local Motors, don't try to make us into GM. Leave us be and go hang out at GM.

LM keeps nothing of the design "to ourselves", it is all given back to the community under a Creative Commons license.

So what you are saying is that you want us to pay every designer who submits an entry a sack of cash, regardless of quality. Then hand every winner a sack of cash every month forever, so we can take your design, put 10-100 times as much work into it you did so that it can become a build-able vehicle. THEN we release those designs back to the community so that anyone can build those vehicles without paying a cent to LM.

Did you even think about what you are proposing?

The people who benefit most from LM converting the designs into technical specifications is NOT LM. It is YOU the community.

The Rally fighter has been worked on by half a dozen engineers and artists for over 1 year now.

Sangho put a lot of work into the Rally Fighter, but I can assure it was not the equivalent of 5  man years.

The end result is that YOU get a build ready vehicle design, that you can take home and do pretty much what you want with.

What other car company on earth release their designs Open Source to the community????

None that I know of. (I could be wrong, but they certainly aren't common)

It is not realistic in any way, shape of form, to pay a designer forever, or even for a year, for a design that you will spend a year making into specs, and then GIVE AWAY.

It is generous enough that the winners get what they do.

I wish I could hand someone my ideas for a computer program, have them build it for me, give it back to me and then pay me for the honor of doing it.

Please mate, where can I get some of what you are smoking?


Comment Type The Ethics & Outcome of Design Collaboration 1 days ago Stingraysstudios said:
Just think you ALL should consider that in the present "market" for Auto Designers it is a VERY CLOSED system, in that...the "job" opportunities available are dwindling away as corporate budgets dictate less & less expense on employee compensation.

Look at GM, they "let go" a whole bunch of designers & this happened not only with GM, but ALL of the USA auto makers during the recent "restructuring" process. Many of those GM designers ended up at Hyundai, Kia & elsewhere, the evidence of thier influence can really be seen in Hyundai recent models, they LOOK like GM "rejects" !!

My point here is this, IF your going to establish an "Alternative Design" infrastructure, based upon a "community" effort....Then you need to provide a REAL WORLD solution for the "participants"...IMO.

Otherwise your just taking advantage of the "talent pool" without a fair compensation. Many of the works I see here are Very Professional executions, regardless of the "manufacture" probability, they represent a Good Deal of Personal EFFORT to accomplish.

Business is BUSINESS. That means that when you "create a design" on a professional presentation level, as Many of the members here do, they Should have some recourse to a "stipend" at the very least.

Now I know my perspective may not "go down easy" with ALL of you here, But...There ARE 2 levels of submissions here, in that some members ARE professional (or quality wise represent that level of expertise) & others are student level, NOT to demean those persons at all, as we all have to learn & go through the "process" to arrive at our own "Art of Design".

My entire point here, & I must THANK all of you for the "spirited" discussion, was not so much to "knock" LM, ..no far from that, rather to infuse a "Higher Standard" of competition.

REAL Designers are at each others throat to get their "ideas" pushed through into production, & that requires a "grounding in design & concept" which just cannot be disputed. Even at that, the companies still have gone " outside" the talent pool to hire an Independent Designer to create new models for their lineups.

Therein lies MY "Bitch"...If indeed we are each of us here "Independent Designers" then we ARE entitled to some form of compensation (at a professional level) for the EFFORTS we develop & submit to LM.





















Comment Type -quick sketch- 2 days ago Aracnid said:
Cute